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, this investigation still very much continuing. justice departments saying the suspect will not be read his miranda rights. they are invoking the public safety exception. it's allowed in cases of immediate danger. meanwhile mccain and lindsay graham said dzhokhar tsarnaev should be treated as a potential enemy combatant. they said now that the suspect is in custody is the last thing we should want is for him to remain silent. under a law of war we can hold the suspect to a enemy combatment not entitled to miranda warnings or the appointment of counsel. the older brother, he was killed on friday, and they investigated him at the request of a foreign government, and they did not find any ties to terrorism. and we are joined from london by a counterterrorism expert, and mike sullivan here is a former acting director of the bureau of tobacco, firearms and explosives. let's start with you in london, will. the fbi talked to this man in 2011. it does beg the question, did they miss something when they talked to tamerlan tsarnaev? >> well, it's always very difficult to say. however, having said that, if yo
him before he receives miranda warning is the right thing to do. a short time ago, the aclu put out a statement saying every defendant is entitled to defend miranda lights. five lawmakers want him treated as an enemy combatant. 53 people remain in boston hospitals today, three in critical condition, including a 7-year-old girl. nbc news national investigative correspondent michaels i cough is in boston, ron allen outside boston's beth israel medical center where the suspect and many of the victims are being kept and kristen we willinger at the white house, let's get to the latest on investigation. for that, we turn to michaels i cough, again, in boston. what is the fbi focusing on today and moving forward? >> reporter: federal prosecutors are focusing on drafting a criminal complaint we could see as early as this afternoon, detailing the criminal charges against him supported by an affidavit from an fbi agent that would lay out some details of the plot. not all of them but could provide crucial new information for us about what tsarnaev actually did and raise and shed some light on
given all that's transpired over the last week. >> he was not read his miranda rights which a lot of people are talking about today. explain the reason why. >> well, in the law there's what they have called a public safety exception to miranda. everybody knows what miranda is. you have the right to remain silent. anything you say can and will be used against you. the police don't have to say that to you if they are in hot pursuit of something relating to public safety. maybe worried about bombs in this case. they're worried about another plot or something else happening. so under those circumstances authorities do not have to give the miranda warning immediately to a suspect. a lot of people out there saying on the right that they ought not give miranda rights or any other kinds of rights to people who are deemed terrorists. people on the left saying you ought to use the regular court to try to try these individuals. this is an ongoing debate about the law in this country. >> let's talk about the penalty that the younger suspect may face. we're still waiting for charges to be file
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before they read miranda rights. this would have falln in the category you can't use this in court but this is what we needed to know if it was more substantive or is that unclear? >> it's not clear whether he provided this information before or after he was read his miranda rights. i don't know. . i know, this is according to a government source, what he has told them in the preliminary investigations. >> jake tapper, thank you very much. obviously significant information there. new information from jake tapper. i want to bring in our panel live tonight. seth jones associate director of the security defense policy center at the rand corporation. former member of the joint terrorism task force and jeffrey toobin our legal analyst. jake is saying -- this is significant in terms of the information in this. but obviously a crucial question out there which is was it obtained before or after those miranda rights were read? >> the irony here is what he is saying is not particularly helpful to him. what would be helpful to him is if he had a conspiracy he could make the government to make
to not or blank or turned his head. if it was given prior to the reading of his miranda rights, it would probably be unlikely they would use that against him in court. if it was used voluntarily afterwards, likely he would. about the fact he has lawyered up, most likely we could send the information probably came prior to his reading of the miranda rights. we don't know that right now. >> thank you very much indeed. an extraordinary court session took place inside his hospital room. a transcript of that hearing tonight that tells us about the accused bomber and the case. jason, tell us what happens, it is fascinating. >> it really is and it is an nine page transcript we got hold of. what i can tell you is this proceeding lasted about ten or 15 minutes, started about 11:30 this morning. all of the key figures came into the hospital room and all of them introduce themselves. you had the u.s. judge there and attorneys from both sides. a court reporter there as well. and everyone present wanted to make sure that he knew exactly what was going on, know about the charges that he is facing. let me read
enforcement. we know that doesn't quite work for several reasons. one, there is an exception in the miranda rights. when a suspect is read their rights by the police, we're talking about a miranda warning. there is a provision that allows in case law that allows for law enforcement to wait if they think there is a national security threat or a danger to the public until they've talked to the person and established there isn't a danger to the public or gotten the information they need. then they can read the miranda rights. that's what the fbi has done in this case. that's what they did in the new york time square bomber. that worked quite well. they talk to him for a while before they read him his rights. then they read him his rights. he kept and he provided very valuable information. we know that the traditional civilian court system founded by the founding fathers can work in this situation. >> let me ask you a couple questions. if the russian government was so concerned about tamerlan as to alert our fbi and our government, and warrant an investigation of him, why are we so sure that dz
negotiation with the fbi he gives himself up. >> right. >> they arrest him. they don't read him his miranda rights. explain. >> i'm not great on this. my understanding with the fbi and the federal authorities is that it's a terrorist act that they don't get certain rights that the rest of us would be afforded. they wanted to make sure that if we did speak with him that he wouldn't be given his miranda rights and something else kicked in. he was just -- >> you were told this in advance. if you found the guy, your officers are not going to read him his miranda rights. >> this never played out. there was no interviewing at the scene. he needed aid. >> he was in no position to talk. >> exactly. >> he was a very weak -- did he mumble anything? did he say anything? did he give any political statements? >> my understanding is he didn't have anything to say. i don't know for sure. >> what about during the 20-minute negotiation with the fbi when they were working out his surrender? did he make any statements that could be useful? >> no. i'm not aware of any statements. i think it was more he was fin
not get his miranda rights. >> among of group of republicans calling for the boston bombing suspect to be considered an enemy combatant. that means he would not have the same constitutional protection as a regular citizen, with regard to what he says as the investigation moves forward. will this happen? california congressman, a senior member of the intelligence committee. congressman, always good to see you. i know that you disagree with the congressman and think that the suspect is in custody. is entitled to his miranda rights. why? >> well, i think the administration is handling it exactly correct. there is a public safety exception under the miranda allowing law enforcement to interview him, making sure there are no other bombs, threats, perpetrators still out there giving the law enforcement flexibility to do the that prior to miranda and i think the court will interpret it broadly and give them the time they need to make sure that the public is safe. after that, he will have to be mirandized, doesn't mean the end of cooperation, but no basis yet to conclude they should be trea
analyst. the 19-year-old has not been read his miranda rights. why does this matter what has it allowed for? what is the issue here? >> a lot of variables here, the question is he in any kwan condition to answer questions with or without miranda? what is his health situation? also, even if he doesn't get miranda warnings, he may decline to answer questions in any case. they can't force him to answer questions, but if he does not receive miranda warnings and if he then anticipates questions those answers cannot be used in a criminal case against him. they can be used for intelligence gathering. they can be used if there are other conspirators who may be prosecuted, can't be used against him. other evidence can be used against him. may be lots of other evidence. if you don't get miranda warnings, your statements i can't be used against you. >> so this is a sensitive issue. another sensitive issue raised by republican senators, lindsey graham, kelly ayotte, peter king, they released a statement, the suspect, based upon his actions, clearly is a good candidate for enemy combat tant status.
's miranda rights. they said he could still pose a threat either because there are more bombs planted out there or he's connected to a larger terrorist cell. either way it has some lawmakers concerned. as investigators continue to interrogate their suspect some lawmakers argue he should be treated as an enemy combatant and denied an attorney for the time being. >> we should be allowed her intelligence-gathering purposes. >> investigators say they're still uncertain whether zocor and his brother tamerlan who died in a shoot-out on friday with police have any ties to fore te union issued a statement saying we must not waver from our tried and true justice system even in the most difficult of times. denial of rights is un-american and will only make it harder to obtain fair convictions. some liberal lawmakers agree and said they would be comfortable with tsarnaev being designated as an enemy combatant. >> i don't believe. it would beunconstitutional to >> it carries its own risk especially if that suspect is an american citizen. it could be challenged in court and that
as a criminal, read his miranda rights and have his right to a lawyer, or should he be treated as an enemy combatant with no such protections? >> i believe very strongly the former. i believe that's the only legal way to proceed. i do not believe, under the military commission law, that he is eligible for that. it would be unconstitutional to do that. let me say this, chris. one of the great things about america is that we come together at times of trial. i very much regret the fact that there are those that want to precipitate a debate over whether he's an enemy combatant or whether he is a terrorist, a murderer, et cetera. federal law, we've had 435 terrorist convictions under federal law. we've had 100-plus arrests. there have been maybe half a dozen under the military commission. it is really very clear to me that the course that can be taken -- you've got the high value interrogation group. they're skilled. they know how to do this. the miranda right can be read at a later time. he has reportedly been shot through the throat. he's intubated. he can't talk now. so there is time to do t
of public safety exception before you give him his miranda rights, all that talk of naming him as an enemy combatant, all of that is moot right now. they've gone forward with the official proceedings. >> well, they may have used the public safety exception, and apparently they were using it to question him, and he responded in some way given his medical condition. but certainly now that he has a lawyer, that period, however long it was, is over. and you're right, the enemy combatant thing was a nonstarter from the never going to happen. this is a criminal case in federal court in massachusetts, and that's where it will stay until it's resolved one way or another. >> it's going to take a while. thanks very much, jeffrey. much more on what's going on in this boston investigation coming up here in "the situation room" 0. >>> also, another terror plot released today, new information. canadian authorities announcing the arrest of two men believed to be part of a terror plot to attack a passenger train that may have been heading towards the united states, the plot said to have an alleged connect
okayed the suspension of the suspect's miranda rights. is that a temporary suspension? >> reporter: yes, by law it is. it's called the public safety exception to the miranda rule. normally you have to tell someone they have a right to remain silent and if you don't, then you can't use anything they tell you in court. so that's why the miranda warning is given. but there is an exception. you don't have to do it if there's a possible threat to public safety. and here obviously there's a concern about whether there are potential accomplices. investigators say they haven't found any. or other explosives. they say they haven't found any of those either but that's what they want to ask him. and this exception probably begins to expire the moment you invoke it so it's probably no good for more than a day or two but nonetheless they can do that. afterwards they'll have to give him his miranda warning and say whether he'll continue to answer questions. the justice department says even in very serious cases like this, most people in custody do continue to talk. >> pete, who's going to be interrog
's before he gets the miranda rights. the fact that he can't speak right now, does that push back that window of time because they're not getting anything from him? >> that's a good question that i won't speculate on without a legal background. i'll leave that one up to the master pete williams. but i can imagine there's got to be some sort of gray area there that some lawyer could look at. on that point, though, i think it's interesting, where we've gone now from, alex, is we've gone from this, all right, what exactly happened, to these real sort of questions surrounding the national security of this country, and how exactly these two individuals were able to go forward with what they ultimately accomplished. so this morning, sort of around that point, talking to folks related to the house homeland security committee, they say they really want to sort of get this investigation rolling on why these two individuals seem to have slipped through the u.s. intelligence community, especially after that information reported yesterday that the russians were concerned about the older broth
to give him a miranda warning. >> which deals with public security threat. do investigators have a good handle, pete, on how big an arsenal they had? >> you know, we have heard conflicting things about this. we know they had a lot of finished bombs because they threw a lot of them out of the car as the police were chasing them thursday night, friday morning. they were throwing these little homemade hand grenades they had out and another pressure cooker device although it wasn't a fully finished one because we heard accounts that they lit it, which is different than the one set off on the two at the boston marathon. so they had seven, eight explosives. how many guns they had is unclear at this point. >> apparently they were using at least one or two of them in that friday night shootout. we're getting new details about how all of that went down. is it right that tamerlan got out of the car. he apparently approached police with a gun. they take him down but then he was still alive and his brother ran him over? >> that's correct. may have dragged him for a short time as well. >> presumably
-called public safety exception to the miranda rule where for some period of time, it's not entirely clear how long, a suspect can be questioned without miranda warnings and that apparently is what's happening here. again, it's complicated somewhat by the fact that we didn't know exactly what tsarnaev's medical condition is and how many questions he can answer. apparently he's answering some questions in writing. so i don't really see lindsey graham's proposal as all that differentwhat's going on now. he seems to suggest a longer process of questioning him, but the obama administration has also committed to some period of questioning. now, this all assumes that he's willing to answer questions. can he always samp simply say it answering questions and there is no way either under enemy combatant rules or in the criminal justice system to force someone to answer questions who doesn't want to answer them. >> the argument i guess is under this limited questioning period before he is formally advised of his miranda rights, he has and right to an attorney, doesn't have to answer any questions. there
news tsarnaev will not be given a miranda warning when he's physically able to be interrogated after receiving medical treatment. instead, the official says the government will invoke a legal rule known as the public safety exception. that will allow investigators to question tsarnaev without first advising him of his right to remain silent and be afforded legal counsel. president obama used his weekly address today to praise law enforcement and those involved in tracking tsarnaev down. >> americans refused to be terrorized. ultimately, that's what we'll remember from this week. that's what will remain, the stories of heroism and kindness, resolve and resilience, generosity, and love. >> authorities caught up with the suspect after a tip from a watertown resident. he was hiding in a boat parked outside a home. he is now in a boston hospital and nbc's ron allen is joining me from there. ron, with a good afternoon to you, let's get the very latest on his condition. are you getting word from the hospital or are they staying somewhat silent on that? >> reporter: absolutely silent, alex.
dzhokhar tsarnaev to investigators, we do not know if that was before or after he received his miranda warnings or before or after he obtained counsel. that's an excellent point. one of the things we do know that he is saying apparently is that it was his brother tamerlan who was the mastermind here. is that something that could be helpful to his defense if he was merely following his brother? >> well, it will be helpful to his defense in the sense of mitigating the penalty that he might end up suffering. from what i've read and what i've seen, he's clearly as culpable as his brother. the videos that they picked up, and the statements that he made to the driver of the suv, all would indicate that he was a willing participant in this crime, and also the fact that he fled from the scene would further indicate his willingness to participate in this crime. however, any influence that he might have suffered from his brother, his brother's influence on him, may again go to mitigate any penalty that might be imposed upon him. whether he ends up getting the death penalty or whether he ends up
, let me come over to you, a lot of talk about miranda. but give me a sense of what the leeway is especially in situations like this, after acts like what happened here at the marathon. >> well, it is yesterday's news. he's been given his miranda warnings and probably anything he said without his miranda warnings is not going to be needed by the government or the prosecution. remember, they did not indict him as a terrorist, that's very important. they indicted him as an ordinary murderer, anybody who wants to kill their mother-in-law, business partner and makes an improvised explosive device and kills them is just as guilty under the statute indicted as osama bin laden might be. this is not a terrorist prosecution. they don't have to prove intent to terrorize, intent to intimidate. they can prove their case just through the videotapes. now, i predict there are going to be two types of possible defenses in this case. number one, the jihad defense. i did it, i'm proud, i'm happy, please kill me, i want to join my brother in paradise. i'm a martyr. the other, my brother made me d
was provided before or after that judge/magistrate was there and r read him his miranda rights? the right to remain silent and the right to have an attorney? >> sources have indicated to us that was part of a questioning that they did under the -- fbi agent does under a national security exemption, before he was assigned counsel. they had the ability in the interest of public safety exception to be able to ask questions, were there additional coconspirators, where and were there additional explosives. the source of things you want to know immediately in order to protect the public. presumably base wanted on what we are hearing, those are the questions they asked and the kinds of responses prior to the first appearance yesterday. >> that would fit in with the public safety exception in the there a in providing the miranda rights to this criminal defendant as he now is, charges have been read to him. fran, we'll stay in close touch with you, fran townsend. much more from boston in just a moment. other news that we're watching as well. the fbi, back in washington, up on capitol hill, lawmake
a former federal prosecutor. we now that dzhokhar, suspect number two, has been read his miranda rights. sow won't be designated as an enemy combatant. but if he was labelled an enemy combatant, he wouldn't have been entitled to a lawyer and a jury trial. they could have asked him a lot of other questions without a lawyer present that may or may not be relevant to national security. now why did they make this decision not to go for enemy combatant status? do they think they have so much evidence in this case that they can go ahead with the civilian jury trial and they don't need to hide behind enemy combatant? >> i think that is certainly part of it. it does look like an overwhelming body of evidence. more than that, they thought they could get the immediate information they needed by the miranda exception, the public safety exception so they could make sure the public was safe. there accident seem to be an constitution aal basis to treat someone that commits a crime like this on our soil. the supreme court has upheld treating an american, the american taliban hamdi captured in afghanis
are told he had not been given his miranda rights. do you have any sense of whether he has this morning or how soon it will be before he does receive them? >> the -- the decision not to read miranda rights was made by the federal officials. this is a unique clause to the terrorism law that we've not dealt with at the local level before. so, we are standing by and watching that at this point in time to see how that develops. but, the lawyers are involved in the decision, and certainly we're very anxious to talk to him, and the investigators will be doing that as soon as possible. >> commissioner over the weekend i heard you say you believe you found evidence your offices did you believe that these brothers were planning some kind of another attack, or at least prepared for it. tell us about that. >> the two suspects were armed with handguns at the scene of the shoot-out. and there were multiple explosive devices, including a large one that was similar to the pressure cooker device that was found on boylston street. i saw that with my own eyes. i believe that the only reason that someone
the question this is exactly the whole issue going back to the miranda, if he had the public safety concern of what were those explosive devices intended for? that's one of the reasons they wanted to talk to him or one of the things thaw wanted to talk to him about at the time before they realized how severely hurt he was. it absolutely proves the point there could have more more attacks planned or another person who was a part of it who maybe at the last minute didn't do it. another reason to think there was more planned is maybe that's why they didn't kill themselves at the time of the marathon attack. they wanted to live to attack another day. >> jeff, somebody must have trained them. can you learn to build a bomb by yourself just by going to the internet and going out there, go to a home depot and buying this kind of stuff? >> you could try to learn, but what you would certainly want to do is rehearse. you don't want to go through the operational energy that it would take to mount an attack like at the marathon without having a fair degree of confidence that your device is going to work
without being given his miranda rights as a matter of public tors are looking overseas for answers specifically want to know more about the older tsarnaev, the brother, who recently went to russia and how that might have changed him. abc reporter is in dagestan where the family has roots. >> reporter: last year, tamerlan tsarnaev traveled here to his old home in a region home to an islamist uprising. investigators want to learn if it was during that trip he became radicalized. family who saw him then, told us they saw no signs of extremism. there was no feeling that he could be, his aunt said, it's not possible. she showed us photos of the suspects as young boys. they were very kind boys, she says. tamerlan came here to renew his passport. the aunt says he stayed to train as a boxer. she said he prayed at the mosque on fridays but denied they fought over religion. we would debate with him. but not fighting. tamerlan spent six months and visited chechnya three times to visit family and also choosing to fly home from the chechen capital. younger brother, dzhokhar was expected to visi
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